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Poster: kmcmurtrie Date: Mar 30, 2005 4:11am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

Tito&Smokey has essentially the same "review" on a number of Phil shows. This person really needs to lighten up. Still, it's humorous to think that folks will go through the archive 30 or 40 years from now, read the reviews, and think, "what an a$$hole".

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Mar 30, 2005 4:23am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

yeah, Tito can sometimes go way over the top. He's kinda more a Jerry fan than a dead fan (not anything really wrong with that) - ive tried to aggravate him a couple of times with some success - pretty funny diatribes from that drunk jersey boy, but I agree it is out of place on the review pages. c'mon - vanilla players with Phil (imho Kimock aint vanilla) He needs to lighten up on the language though - not sure archive.org is the place for his xrated rants. I agree that the curators should monitor some of those types of reviews.

This post was modified by direwolf0701 on 2005-03-30 12:23:37

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Poster: TimePilot Date: Mar 30, 2005 4:27am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

Interesting. Again, he is a problem, but so are those that counter-review his. Going from 1 star to 5 stars just based on their personal preferences. If I went to read the reviews to decide whether or not to download, I would have no clue whether the show (recording especially) was any good or not.

KnowhatImean?

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Mar 30, 2005 4:37am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

its not just the people countering tito - i am so tired of downloading a show with 4 or 5 stars to find out it sounds like my grandmother recorded it from her sewing room 5 miles away from the venue (ok - i exaggerate). I actually ignore the reviews from people who were at the show only because it may have been phenomenal live, but the sbd or aud can often suck bigtime.

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Poster: Alienboy Date: Jul 9, 2008 4:19pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

Ya what a waste of 10 mins to download a show....that really sucks puttin all that time and effort. I was gald to download all of Dr. Flashbacks reviews, not a
fart in a carload.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Jul 9, 2008 4:47pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

holy freakin crap - you pulled out one of my posts from almost 3 1/2 years ago -

surprisingly, i even remember writing that - maybe my brain is actually coming back (slowly)

peace

dire

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Poster: pnc Date: Mar 30, 2005 4:24am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

agreed...

i'll admit to sometimes adding a personal note to my reviews, but do generally try to keep it to the sound quality and the quality of the performance itself.

Tito goes too far... As a jersey boy myself, i'll admit to the occasional chuckle, but mainly i think he is over the top and his antics have no place on this amazing website. and certainly no place in the reviews section.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Mar 30, 2005 5:11am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

Please don't use your reviews to "aggravate" any patrons, thanks! You can imagine that would only make a situation worse.

Perhaps leaving an Error Report calling certain line-crossing review(s) into question could be a good way to go. Otherwise some possibly fixable problems might get missed. Thanks!

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-03-30 13:11:54

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Poster: TimePilot Date: Mar 30, 2005 5:10am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

OK...didn't know we could do that! That would make sense, though. If, after analysis of the line-crossing reviews, you or another decided to take reviews off, can they be deleted?

And, what do you mean by "some possibly fixable problems might get missed"?

Thanks Diana!

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Mar 30, 2005 5:26am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

what do you mean by "some possibly fixable problems might get missed"?

I mean, even little stuff like "Hey, this is an AUD mislabeled as a SBD" or "The setlist is wrong" or "Song X is misspelled" or "I said no MP3 but they got made anyway" can go into an error report. As I browse shows I notice that sometimes people leave those reports as 1-3 star show reviews. Curators are likely to miss those, but the error report staff will see error reports, even the ones that they can't always act on right away. And meanwhile the stars on the report skew the rating unnecessarily.

"A couple people are running wild in the show reviews" may be a fixable problem if staff are given enough data, via Error Reports, to examine or correct the problem...

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-03-30 13:26:48

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Poster: TimePilot Date: Mar 30, 2005 5:30am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

Great! Now, if everyone reading this post and agreeing to the skewed ratings would file an error report on reviews that do not pertain to the actual recording, we will be getting somewhere. Then we can get more accurate ratings for the particular recordings we are researching! Meanwhile, if you want to speak your mind...post a new topic on the Forum!

Thanks Diana!!!!!!!!

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Mar 30, 2005 5:36am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

Likely this particular item's amply covered with reports now. But there are thousands of items in the IA with reviews, and if there are a few bad ones among them they'll be hard for staff to pick out of the haystack to look at without some alert help.

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Poster: TimePilot Date: Mar 30, 2005 5:43am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

Yes! You're speaking my language, Diana. We've gotta take action!!! I'm all worked up...where's the picket line?

:) LOL

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Mar 30, 2005 5:53am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

where's the picket line?

Heh,
http://www.archive.org/audio/etreelisting-browse.php
or maybe even
http://www.archive.org/advancedsearch.php

You can get creative on the latter to patrol just certain areas, or even limit a search to items with a desired threshold number of reviews. (I'm guessing anything with 100+ reviews on it right now could have a flamewar in it. ;) )

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Poster: TimePilot Date: Mar 30, 2005 5:59am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

Good deal. I'll enlist! Just make sure and verify my tax deduction for 2005 for my volunteer services!

HA!

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Mar 31, 2005 2:02am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

BTW in the advanced search, there are custom field choices for review "createdate" and "reviewdate". I don't know which would be better to filter on, but if things started hopping just recently, try filtering one of them for say, 3/10/05+.

I believe the field info for that would be:
is greater than, 2005-03-10

EDIT: 3/10+ kept crashing the search for me when I tried, but I just got 3/28+ range to work.

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-03-31 10:02:21

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffBrad Leblanc Date: Mar 30, 2005 6:29am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

Please don't use your reviews to "aggravate" any patrons, thanks! You can imagine that would only make a situation worse.

These will be deleted. Using the review section to attack/aggravate/comment on other patrons is not allowed.

You may respond to their comments and offer your own, but verbal vomit directed toward other patrons will be censored. This is about the only type of censorship on this website that we don't feel remorse for.

The curators have better things to do and I suspect most of them prefer not to get involved in censorship.

This comment is right on the money. If there's an error report on an item here asking for a review to be removed, it will have to be an extreme example of abuse before it will be considered. Just warning you - I know why you folks are looking for some action here, but it's really considered by the staff as a much bigger issue.

i am so tired of downloading a show with 4 or 5 stars to find out it sounds like my grandmother recorded it from her sewing room 5 miles away from the venue

Please do the community a favor and post these thoughts. There is a serious need for honest reviewers in this collection. Keep your criticisms civil and contructive, and let the rest of us know if there are issues with the sound or if the band had an off night. Too few people have the guts to do this, but the collection has gotten big enough to desperately need it.

-Brad

This post was modified by Brad Leblanc on 2005-03-30 14:29:19

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Poster: TimePilot Date: Mar 30, 2005 6:30am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

Right on.

Thanks, Brad.

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Poster: direwolf2003 Date: Mar 30, 2005 8:07am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

Thank you Brad - poingant (sp?) as usual - i could not agree with you more - hope alot of people read your post - peace all

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Poster: Ole Uncle John Date: Mar 30, 2005 10:44am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

After reading this string I decided to see who was in the hen house and read their reviews. I have included two of your (direwolf2003) "reviews" and want to ask do you think these are show reviews or part of the problem Brad was referring to??

March 28, 2005
Reviewer: direwolf2003
Subject: tito
Tito is always like this - entertaining in a sick way. The only thing bothering me is that he uses the word "pedophile" (et al) more than the lawyers in the Michael Jackson case. Look in the mirror dude - you just might need to answer some questions. btw - Phil and Friend is awesome - this is a good show - gotta agree that Phil kinda gotta stop singing at some point - sorry Phil, i love ya though. Re: one star rating - Tito that rating was for you not for a wonderful show

March 23, 2005
Reviewer: direwolf2003
Subject: tito and touch
Hey tito and touch - gotta agree with the other dude. You two are about as much true deadheads as my cat is a nuclear engineer. The number of shows you have seen has NO bearing on what type of deadhead you are. You two a pedestrian at best. I will admit you have had your points on some of your reviews. But your caustic attitude and faulty elitism comes nowhere near the true heads i know and respect. I fully understand that the two of you will read this and smirk, but ive seen around 200 shows and have hung with others from Cali who have been there since '74 - you two belong more with the metal crowd with your attitudes. I truly hope your real life attitudes do not reflect your obnoxious take on reviews and other people. Peace to you both (and maybe a few months supply of Wellbutrin).

Your reviews are by no means the worst of the 2 shows that I pulled them from, but you are the only one who's participating in this thread. My question being if we can't police ourselves how can we go around telling others what they can't write?
Just wondering.

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Poster: direwolf2003 Date: Mar 30, 2005 11:14am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

I couldnt agree more - i had two or three days or just kinda gettin aggravated at Tito's attitude. Those two posts are part of the problem - i think they are my only two like that. I used the review board to entertain myself and have since ceased - certainly not trying to be part of the problem - just got caught up in it for a couple of days.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffBrad Leblanc Date: Mar 30, 2005 9:56pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

Not sure if they are still there, but you can update/edit your reviews Mr. direwolf2003. :) Maybe go back and help us out?

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Mar 30, 2005 11:48pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

Hey Brad - good idea - I will remove or edit those to clean up my mess. Should be done today (cant remember why I have two different login names - lol)

think i got rid of them - if any others get noticed let me know and i will delete them myself. My "ripple effect" reviews were certainly not intended to harm the integrity of this great site - thanks

This post was modified by direwolf0701 on 2005-03-31 07:48:47

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Poster: TimePilot Date: Mar 30, 2005 11:19am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

This is what I was referring to as a "rebound" review.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Mar 30, 2005 8:39pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

I think of them as "ripple effect" reviews.

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Poster: direwolf2003 Date: Mar 30, 2005 11:25am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

yeah - kinda wondering if it had anything to do with the beers i had been drinking? (naahhhhhh)

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffBrad Leblanc Date: Mar 30, 2005 10:04am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

> poingant (sp?) as usual

Hahaha! I know some of my posts come off a little sharp or abrasive. Trust me when I tell you I'm just trying to be clear.

Cheers,

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Poster: TimePilot Date: Mar 30, 2005 11:22am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

-the curators have better things to be doing...-

I totally understand this, I just hope you didn't mind me starting this post. I think this was an 'extreme example' as you mentioned and the main review causing the stir DID get deleted. I think your main post, Brad should be posted somewhere else on the site so more people could read and digest it.

My, aren't we feeling productive today, archive!?

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Poster: kmcmurtrie Date: Mar 30, 2005 4:44am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

The curators have better things to do and I suspect most of them prefer not to get involved in censorship. Still, you can't expect children to always play nice without some adult supervision :-)

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Poster: TimePilot Date: Mar 30, 2005 4:53am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

I would agree 100% if the ugly/rebound reviews pertained to the actual recordings. But, in these cases, they do not.

This post was modified by TimePilot on 2005-03-30 12:53:37

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Poster: najdz Date: Mar 30, 2005 5:07am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

I always thought that the Grateful Dead and the whole hippy trip is about freedom of speech and expression, Tito has every right to say what he wants without censorship, If we start censoring people because we do not like what they say, we would be acting like the current administration in the White House, and thats not cool man!

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Poster: TimePilot Date: Mar 30, 2005 5:25am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

That's not EVEN what I am saying. I am 100% for freedom of speech and about the biggest Zappa fan you'll find. My argument is that his and other's "reviews" are not actual reviews of the shows, but opinions about the bands in general. Which is great and needs to be discussed! But, these discussions should be for the forum section of the site (like how we are discussing this now). If he & others slandered an actual show (recording and/or performance) that would be fine with me!

Also, it is not just Tito or others like him, but those against him that counter-attack with positive reviews. It skews the whole review process. Don't you think?

Again, I am 100% for speaking your mind, that is not the point I am trying ot make. Just keep reviews strictly reviews of the actual shows on the archive and direct your opinions about post-Jerry band arrangements on the Forum.

This post was modified by TimePilot on 2005-03-30 13:21:51

This post was modified by TimePilot on 2005-03-30 13:25:48

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Poster: Ole Uncle John Date: Mar 30, 2005 10:20am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

Interesting topic. Of course if we censor/remove "reviews" that we determine rude, or personal attacks or rebound, shouldn't we also censor/remove all the "stories" and other postings that aren't really "reviews" as well?
And as for the unreliable ratings that's why I always stream a few songs before I download the whole show to check for myself quality issues. (by the way don't use the first couple songs of a show for this since the sound usually has problems in the beginning).

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffBrad Leblanc Date: Mar 30, 2005 10:42am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

I think you hit the nail on the head sir. :)

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Poster: TimePilot Date: Mar 30, 2005 11:26am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

So Brad, can you clarify this:

You deleted the review slandering an archive artist (yea), yet buy agreeing to the above post, are you saying that an 'audit' deleting false reviews should be made every so often, or are you saying that I or someone else sould not draw your attention to these kinds of reviews like we saw today with this Phil show?

Again, I am just trying to clarify your intentions....
Thanks!

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffBrad Leblanc Date: Mar 30, 2005 7:55pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

I deleted 1 review yesterday which was nothing but a pissed off response to the original post by Smokey calling him lots of (very vulgar) names. Like I mention below - attacks on other patrons will be censored. I don't think I got there in time to see Smokey's post, someone else deleted it.

What I am agreeing to is that if we delete Smokey's reviews for the reason "they don't pertain to the performance or recording", then the case is easily made that we should go through and delete many, many other less offensive posts for the same reason. This is a very slippery slope that we are not comfortable with - the last thing we want to have to do is write up and publish a document explaining what an "acceptable review" should contain...

Those "stories" are considered annoying by some of you, but they do offer a snapshot of the scene and the people who went for younger fans that have never been to a GD performance. IMO they are harmless and someone out there benefits from reading them (and probably chuckles).

Like Diana says, put error reports on them, explain why they should be removed in your opinion, and we will review and respond to them 1 by 1.

-Brad

This post was modified by Brad Leblanc on 2005-03-31 03:55:57

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Mar 30, 2005 8:38pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

put error reports on them, explain why they should be removed in your opinion, and we will review and respond to them 1 by 1.

You're holding out the possibility of just removals. Something to think about: Could users suggest selective/editing moderation on certain reviews? Tough judgment area for mods (and time-consuming), but some nastier ad-hominems could be removed from otherwise "real" reviews that way.

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-03-31 04:38:59

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffBrad Leblanc Date: Mar 30, 2005 10:05pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

Very true, good point Diana - if there is some substance to them, it's a possibility that it could be "cleaned up".

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Poster: TimePilot Date: Mar 30, 2005 10:45pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

Thank you all so much for your posts on this topic. I hope you are OK with the fact I brought this to the Forum in the first place. I just felt the 2-12-05 Phil show was particularly out of hand, but will use error reporting from now on.

Thanks again to you both...

Marty

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Poster: Rivertrance Date: Mar 31, 2005 12:51am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

Thanks for bringing it up, Marty...was feeling the same way but didn't know if I should say anything...and again, thanks to all at this wonderful site who make it happen....peace

Roy

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Mar 30, 2005 11:12pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

Given the sudden ascendancy of the issue in general, it seems worth it to have brought up here, thanks!

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Poster: TimePilot Date: Mar 30, 2005 4:14am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

True (Ha!), but my point is that these "bad reviews" (1 star) that are actually forum posts AND their "rebound reviews" (the 5 stars) that should be replies to the forum posts actually SKEW the rating of that particular show.

KnowhatImean?

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Poster: kmcmurtrie Date: Mar 30, 2005 4:26am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

I just made a feature request for band reviews.

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Poster: TimePilot Date: Mar 30, 2005 4:30am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

Sorry...what is a feature request?

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Poster: kmcmurtrie Date: Mar 30, 2005 4:40am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Ugly/Rebound Phil Reviews

On http://www.archive.org/audio/, on the left hand side under "Useful Links" you can request a feature be added to LMA.